Lal Masjid Operation: A factual analysis of its background, the operation itself and the aftermath

امجد میانداد نے 'General Discussion' کی ذیل میں اس موضوع کا آغاز کیا، ‏اپریل 24, 2013

  1. امجد میانداد

    امجد میانداد محفلین

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    Is it possible for you to stick on a single statement.

    Once you are criticising the misconceptioning atitude of media for highlighting the name of WP as a weapon used in Lal Masjid and pointing and highlighting WP as an ordinary smoke grenade, describing those burns on the dead bodies of victims of Lal Masjid massacre as caused by highly explosive weapons which are used in intensive battles and was not WP, so who used this highly explosive weapon in this intensive battle. When I asked you to name the other highly explosive weapon which caused severe burns if it was not WP, you again refered to WP.
    Now you stepped back to WP as a weapon used in long range battles. How come the long range weapon cannot impact as being made for short range????

    Bottom line:

    WP was used as a weapon, and caused severe human damaged.
    If WP didn't caused casualities then there was any other chemical weapon of short range.​
     
  2. امجد میانداد

    امجد میانداد محفلین

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    Use in Iraq (2004)​


    In April 2004, during the First Battle of Fallujah, a reporter from the North County Times described U.S. Marine mortar teams using a mixture of white phosphorus and high explosives to shell a cluster of buildings where Iraqi insurgents had been spotted throughout the week.[11] In November 2004, during the Second Battle of Fallujah, Washington Post embedded reporters stated that some U.S. artillery guns fired white phosphorus rounds that "create a screen of fire that cannot be extinguished with water." [12] Insurgents reported being attacked with a substance that melted their skin, a reaction consistent with white phosphorus burns.[12]
    On November 9, 2005 the Italian state-run broadcaster Radiotelevisione Italiana S.p.A. aired a documentary titled "Fallujah, The Hidden Massacre", alleging that the United States' used white phosphorus as a weapon in Fallujah causing insurgents and civilians to be killed or injured by chemical burns.[citation needed] The filmmakers further claimed that the United States used incendiary MK-77 bombs in violation of Protocol III of the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons. According to the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, quoted in the documentary, white phosphorus is permitted for use as an illumination device and as a weapon with regard to heat energy, but not permitted as an offensive weapon with regard to its toxic chemical properties.[13][14]
    On November 15, 2005, the U.S. Department of Defense confirmed to the BBC that white phosphorus had been used as an incendiary antipersonnel weapon in Fallujah, stating "When you have enemy forces that are in covered positions that your high explosive artillery rounds are not having an impact on and you wish to get them out of those positions, one technique is to fire a white phosphorus round into the position because the combined effects of the fire and smoke - and in some case the terror brought about by the explosion on the ground - will drive them out of the holes so that you can kill them with high explosives."[15][16]
    Israel-Lebanon conflict (2006)​


    During the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, Israel claimed that it had used phosphorus shells "against military targets in open ground" in south Lebanon. Israel clarified that its use of the white phosphorus bombs was permitted under international conventions.[17] President of Lebanon Émile Lahoud claimed that phosphorus shells were used against civilians in Lebanon.[18] The first Lebanese official complaint about the use of phosphorus came from Information Minister Ghazi Aridi.[19]
    Ukraine white phosphorus train disaster​


    On 16 July 2007, a train transporting 15 tanks containing white phosphorus derailed in the Lviv oblast. As a result 90[20][21] square kilometers were contaminated with a cloud of white phosphorus. In the first days 152[22][23] people were hospitalized.[24] The disaster was described as an equivalent to the Chernobyl disaster.[23][25] 16000 people were checked for symptoms of chemical poisoning within a week,[26] and Lviv residents were advised to stay inside and not to use water from wells, nor eat vegetables from their gardens or drink milk from their cows (later this advice was revoked). On 18 July 2007, it was reported that NATO was watching the toxic cloud movement.[27]
    Gaza War (2008–2009)​


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Israeli Army drop White Phosphorus bombs on Gaza residential areas[28]
    In its early statements the Israeli military repeatedly denied using white phosphorus, saying "We categorically deny the use of white phosphorus", and "The IDF acts only in accordance with what is permitted by international law and does not use white phosphorus." It eventually admitted its use and stopped using the shells, however, saying that a "media buzz" led to its decision to do so.[29]
    Numerous reports from human right groups during the war indicated that white phosphorus shells were being used by Israel in populated areas.[30][31][32]
    Human Rights Watch said shells exploded over populated civilian areas, including a crowded Palestinian refugee camp[33] and a United Nations school where civilians were seeking refuge.[34] Additionally, Human Rights Watch said that white phosphorus injuries were suspected in the cases of ten burn victims.[35] The International Red Cross stated that phosphorus weapons had been used in the conflict but would not comment publicly on the legality of Israel’s use of the weapon, pending further investigation, contrary to what had been attributed to the ICRC in a number of media reports.[35][36][37]
    Human Rights Watch said its experts in the region had witnessed the use of white phosphorus. Kenneth Roth, the organisation's executive director, added: "This is a chemical compound that burns structures and burns people. It should not be used in populated areas."[38]
    Amnesty International said a fact-finding team found "indisputable evidence of the widespread use of white phosphorus" in crowded civilian residential areas of Gaza City and elsewhere in the territory.[39] Donatella Rovera, the head of an Amnesty fact-finding mission to southern Israel and Gaza, said: "Israeli forces used white phosphorus and other weapons supplied by the USA to carry out serious violations of international humanitarian law, including war crimes."[40]
    On 5 January the Times reported that telltale smoke associated with white phosphorus had been seen in areas of a shelling. On 12 January it was reported that more than 50 phosphorus burns victims were in Nasser Hospital. On 16 January the UNRWA headquarters was hit with phosphorus munitions.[41] As a result of the hit, the compound was set ablaze.[42]
    Many other observers, including Human Rights Watch military experts, reported seeing white phosphorus air bursts over Gaza City and the Jabalya refugee camp.[43] The BBC published a photograph of two shells exploding over a densely populated area on 11 January.[44]
    Since Protocol III, of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons regulates Incendiary Weapons, and shells containing White Phosphorus,may be legal even in populated areas, more information is required to determine the legality of any shell landing in populated areas. [45]
    The IDF stated on 13 January that it "wishes to reiterate that it uses weapons in compliance with international law, while strictly observing that they be used in accordance with the type of combat and its characteristics."[46]
    On 14 January, Israeli news sources Haaretz and Ynetnews reported that a mortar shell containing white phosphorus was fired from Gaza and exploded without damage or injury in an open space in the Eshkol area.[33][47] The official foreign press spokesman for the Israeli Police, Micky Rosenfeld, stated that the shell had landed in a field near Sderot.[48][49] A day after the attack, a researcher for Human Rights Watch travelled to Sderot to investigate the claim. One resident said he had heard about a mortar shell, possibly with white phosphorus, landing in a field outside of town but could not specify where. When pressed for information, Rosenfeld could give no further insight, telling Human Rights Watch that "all I have is what's in the press release." Local authorities in Sderot also told the researcher that they were unaware of the attack.[49]
    On 15 January, the United Nations compound, housing numerous refugees in Gaza City, was struck by Israeli white phosphorus artillery shells, setting fire to pallets of relief materials and igniting several large fuel storage tanks. A UN spokesperson indicated that there were difficulties in attempting to extinguish the fires because of the white phosphorus and stated "You can’t put it [white phosphorus] out with traditional methods such as fire extinguishers. You need sand but we do not have any sand in the compound."[50][51] Senior Israeli defense officials maintain that the shelling using white phosphorus munitions was in response to Israeli military personnel being fired upon by Hamas fighters who were in proximity to the UN headquarters, and was used for smoke.[52] The Israeli army investigated improper use of WP in the conflict, particularly in one incident in which 20 WP shells were fired in a built-up area of Beit Lahiya.[53]
    On 17 January, Peter Herby, head of the International Committee of the Red Cross Arms Unit , confirmed the use of white phosphorus weapons by Israel in Gaza, outlined the rules applicable to phosphorus weapons and explained the ICRC's approach to the issue.[54]
    On 20 January, Paul Wood of the BBC reports from Gaza on white phosphorus use in civilian areas. Amnesty team weapon expert Christopher Cobb-Smith, who witnessed the shelling by the IDF during the conflict, reported "we saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still-burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli army."[55]
    On 26 January, after weeks of fighting in which Israel either strenuously denied it was using white phosphorus weaponry, or insisted any use was "in line with international law", the nation's Ministry of Defence admitted using white phosphorus in densely populated Gaza.[56][57][58]
    On 25 March 2009, USA Based Human Rights Organization Human Rights Watch published a 71-page report titled Rain of Fire, Israel’s Unlawful Use of White Phosphorus in Gaza and said that Israel's usage of the weapon was illegal.[59]
    White phosphorus munitions did not kill the most civilians in Gaza – many more died from missiles, bombs, heavy artillery, tank shells, and small arms fire – but their use in densely populated neighborhoods, including downtown Gaza City, violated international humanitarian law (the laws of war), which requires taking all feasible precautions to avoid civilian harm and prohibits indiscriminate attacks. [59]
    The Israeli government released a report in July 2009 that confirmed that the IDF used white phosphorus in both exploding munitions and smoke projectiles. The report acknowledged the use of exploding munitions by Israeli ground and naval forces. The report argues that the use of these munitions was limited to unpopulated areas for marking and signaling and not as an anti-personnel weapon.[60] The Israeli government report further stated that smoke screening projectiles were the majority of the munitions containing white phosphorus employed by the IDF and that these were very effective in that role. The report states that at no time did IDF forces have the objective of inflicting any harm on the civilian population.[60]
    Head of the UN Fact Finding Mission Justice Richard Goldstone presented the report of the Mission to the Human Rights Council in Geneva on 29 September 2009, urging the Council and the international community as a whole to put an end to impunity for violations of international law in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory.[61] The Goldstone report accepted that white phosphorus is not illegal under international law but did find that the Israelis were "systematically reckless in determining its use in build-up areas". It also called for serious consideration to be given to the banning of its use as an obscurant.[62]
    Human Rights Watch claimed in its report that instead of white phosphorus, the Israeli military had a non-lethal alternative at its disposal- smoke shells produced by Israel Military Industries.​
    In 2010, Anchel Pfeffer of Haaretz claimed that the Israeli report to the UN included a section discussing two senior Israeli officers who were responsible for firing white phosphorus artillery shells on a United Nations compound and were reprimanded earlier that year.[63] This was later disproved. The officers were reprimanded for permitting artillery shot in that same combat, and Israel continued to claim that its use of phosphorus in that combat was only for smoke.[64]
    Afghanistan (2009)​


    There are confirmed cases of white phosphorus burns on bodies of civilians wounded in Afghanistan US-Taliban clashes near Bagram. The United States has accused Taliban militants of using white phosphorus weapons illegally on at least 44 occasions.[65] In May 2009, Colonel Gregory Julian, a spokesman for General David McKiernan, the overall commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, confirmed that Western military forces in Afghanistan use white phosphorus in order to illuminate targets or as an incendiary to destroy bunkers and enemy equipment.[66][67] The Afghan government later launched an investigation into the use of white phosphorus munitions.[68]
    Use in Yemen (2009)​


    Houthi fighters in Yemen claimed Saudi warplanes dropped phosphorus bombs on villages in north Yemen in November 2009.[69] The Saudi government denied military use of phosphorus munitions against the rebels, saying they were flares, not phosphorus.[70]
    Israeli-Palestinian conflict (2009–2012)​


    In September 2009, Israeli officials stated that Palestinian militants fired two mortar shells containing white phosphorus into Israel from the Gaza Strip.[71] In September 2010, reports of white phosphorus mortars hitting Eshkol regional council (Israel) Eshkol Regional Council head Haim Yalin told Haaretz on Wednesday that "at about 6:30 in the morning the mortars began landing. By noon nine mortar shell hits had been identified, including two phosphorous (sic) ones."[72][73]
    Rocket attacks launched by militants out of Gaza into southern Israel have been reported to use white phosphorus as late as March 2011.[74][75]
    The Jerusalem Post reported that in January 2012, two mortars were fired from Gaza into the area governed by the Eshkol Regional Council which were determined by the Israeli military to have contained white phosphorus; the shells were reported to have landed in open fields, causing no injuries or damage.[76] The newspaper stated that the Eshkol Regional Council filed a formal complaint with the United Nations, noting that the Geneva Conventions prohibit the use of phosphorus against civilians.[77]
    The IDF has admitted to using smoke shells containing white phosphorus on several occasions during the bombardment of the Gaza Strip following the expiration of the six-month truce between Israel and Hamas. Israel has also admitted that it used Incendiary Weapons against open unpopulated areas for marking and signaling purposes. [78]
    Among the places worst affected by the use of white phosphorus was the UNRWA compound in Gaza City, at which Israeli forces fired three white phosphorus smoke shells on 15 January. The white phosphorus landed next to some fuel trucks and caused a large fire which destroyed tons of humanitarian aid.[79][80][81] Prior to this strike, the compound had already been hit an hour earlier and the Israeli authorities had been informed by UNRWA officials and had given assurance that no further strikes would be launched on the compound.[82] In another incident on the same day a white phosphorus smoke shell landed in the al-Quds hospital in Gaza City also causing a fire that forced hospital staff to evacuate the patients.[83] The commander of the Gaza division, Brig. Gen. Eyal Eizenberg, and the commander of the Givati brigade, Col. Ilan Malka, were later disciplined for authorized the shelling. [84]
    Use in Libya (2011)​


    During the NATO operation in Libya, some news sources[85][86] reported about alleged use of white phosphorus by NATO forces. During the uprising, shells with white phosphorus and the use of cluster bombs[87] over Misrata by Gaddafi forces had been also reported.​
     
  3. امجد میانداد

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    Spontaneously flammable chemical used for battlefield illumination
    Contact with particles causes burning of skin and flesh
    Use of incendiary weapons prohibited for attacking civilians (Protocol III of Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons)
    Protocol III not signed by US
    During military combat operations in Fallujah, Iraq, white phosphorus munitions were used by United States military forces as an incendiary weapon and as an obscurant. The United States denied allegations that white phosphorus was used as a weapon against civilians, stating that it was only used to target insurgents.[1]
     
  4. Ghazi

    Ghazi محفلین

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    I am already sticking to the point about the grenade. Its really very straight and simple.

    What do you mean by your statements about long range weapons ???
    It was said from the start that WP grenade was used and grenades are never used for long range. Its simple.
    You will only confuse yourself by arguing. The issue is clear but now you add points of high explosives, massacres, etc. Grenades are of different types, you can study them.
     
  5. امجد میانداد

    امجد میانداد محفلین

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    Grenades shower flowers???​
     
  6. Ghazi

    Ghazi محفلین

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    @ امجد میانداد

    The article you post regarding US Army is different, the nature of those battles were different and US used artillery, tanks and jets.

    BUT in this operation, there was no artillery and tanks used by Pakistan Army. It was a close combat and chemical weapons are never used in close combat. Its a global fact.
     
  7. امجد میانداد

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    WP grenade cannot be used as a destructive weapon???
    Why you ignore its destructive usage in operations like Lal Masjid??
    What weapon else caused severe body burns???
    Isn’t a grenade or few are enough for a compound to suffocate and burn humans??
     
  8. Ghazi

    Ghazi محفلین

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    This is exactly what i already predicted in my post#20 that you can possibly make an issue that why weapons were used... you did it and made an issue by saying "Grenades shower flower" followed by the next post!

    Have a nice day!
     
  9. Ghazi

    Ghazi محفلین

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    @ امجد میانداد

    Put aside the use of weapons, an operation was also carried out in Masjid Al-Haram, this Lal Masjid operation is nothing in front of it !!
     
  10. امجد میانداد

    امجد میانداد محفلین

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    You are really a genius predicted my untold concerns which were the main aim of this whole post :D
    but where is the answers to the questions in this analysis???​
    If you are accused of creating administrative gaps, lacking administrative domain, will you kill people instead of putting their plea into concerns??​
    If it was so much needed wasn't there any other way, gas or something else which could numb the people instead of killing to take over the situation.????​
     
  11. Ghazi

    Ghazi محفلین

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    Lets put aside the use of weapons and other issues relating to the operation, the Lal Masjid elements were not very innocent. What they did in their actions are the signs of Khawarij. This has been told by Holy Prophet SAW.
     
  12. امجد میانداد

    امجد میانداد محفلین

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    Only one factor is responsible for the whole and that is STATE
    which caused administrative gaps, did not listen the plea of residents of that area
    did not resolved at the time of initial protest.
     
  13. Ghazi

    Ghazi محفلین

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    Its over now, its finished. Now there is no use of thinking like this..
     
  14. امجد میانداد

    امجد میانداد محفلین

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    What I believe it's not over yet, till the administrative gaps being not bridged.

    Culprit is there, still without any charge, the gap will definitely be widened once again if he becomes clear as the REST is trying to.
     
  15. Ghazi

    Ghazi محفلین

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    What you believe is your personal opnion, but the fact is that those Lal Masjid elements picked up weapons and declared war against the state and started it by killing a Ranagers soldier and injuring another. An operation started to neutralize them and its over now.

    Its finished.
     
  16. امجد میانداد

    امجد میانداد محفلین

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    You should go through this article once again.
     
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  17. Ghazi

    Ghazi محفلین

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    ok
     
  18. Muhammad Zeshan Saeed

    Muhammad Zeshan Saeed محفلین

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    غازی بھائی میڈیا کی بتائی ہوئی باتوں کو من و عن تسلیم کر لینے سے پہلے ایک بار یہ ڈاکومنڑی ذرا وقت نکال کر ضرور دیکھ لیں۔۔۔
    http://johnpilger.com/videos/the-war-you-dont-see
     
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  19. Muhammad Zeshan Saeed

    Muhammad Zeshan Saeed محفلین

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    حسان بھائی میڈیا کی بتائی ہوئی باتوں کو من و عن تسلیم کر لینے سے پہلے ایک بار یہ ڈاکومنڑی ذرا وقت نکال کر ضرور دیکھ لیں۔۔۔
     

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